Joy Cho, creative director, designer, author, Thai American, and mother, opens up about anxiety and trying something different.
Jelani talks with Joy Cho, creative director, designer, author, Thai American, and mother.
Joy is the founder of Oh Joy! and has collaborated with brands like Target, Band-Aid, Petco, and so many more. She’s done 40 licensing partnerships to date, creating colorful, and incredibly designed products. Joy also happens to hold the record for the most followers of any influencer on Pinterest at 15+ million.
Here’s the thing about Joy though: just like Jelani and many others, she’s an introvert. She doesn’t recharge when there’s a bunch of people around her, but rather in those quiet moments by herself. The child of immigrants, this conversation gets into how Joy’s learned to keep the good things she got from her parents while evolving to fit with her family today.
Jelani and Joy talk about how the key to parenting might just be flexibility. Flexibility with how you think things are supposed to go and how they actually go. Flexibility with the different stages of your kids' lives. And flexibility to balance work, home, life, and everything else.
Joy has this parenting thing figured out, and we’re so excited to share this conversation with you.
Learn more about Joy at her site, ohjoy.com.
Contact us by emailing us at listen@akidsco.com.
Explore our collection of over 80 books made to empower, by visiting akidsco.com.
Better Grownups
S1E06, Introverts Show Up with Joy Cho
[INTRODUCTION]
Jelani: Hey, welcome to Better Grownups.
I'm Jelani Memory, founder of A Kids Co. And this is a parenting podcast all about how to be a better grownup.
This week, I'm chatting with Joy Cho, Creative Director, Designer, Author, Thai American, and Mother.
Joy is the founder of Oh Joy! And has collaborated with brands like Target, Band-Aid, Petco, and so many more. She’s done 40 licensing partnerships to date, creating colorful, and incredibly designed products. Joy also happens to hold the record for the most followers of any influencer on Pinterest at 15+ Million.
Here’s the thing about Joy though, just like me, she’s an introvert. She doesn’t recharge when there’s a bunch of people around her, but rather in those quiet moments by herself. The child of immigrants, we get into how she’s learned to keep the good things she got from her parents while evolving to fit with her family today.
We talk about how the key to parenting might just be flexibility. Flexibility with how you think things are supposed to go and how they actually go. Flexibility with the different stages of your kids' lives. And flexibility to balance work, home, life, and everything else.
Joy has this parenting thing figured out, and I’m so excited to share this conversation with you, it’s just that good.
Okay. Joy Cho. Let's get into it.
[INTERVIEW]
Jelani: Joy. Welcome to the show.
Joy: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Jelani: Yeah, I, I was so excited about getting the chance to chat with you because you do so much. And as a fellow do-so-much type person, you know, like mm-hmm, navigating that like, the kid drop offs, the work projects, the empire building, the spouse stuff, the kid pickups, like all those things end up intermingling. And, and I know part of why I chose to be an entrepreneur was every everything's personal to me, work’s personal and home’s personal and somewhere in here is a question I promise.
I'm curious for you. How you've, how you've chosen to weave together your, your work life and your home life and your parent life from a schedule perspective, from a time management perspective, from an emotional investment perspective. Like, what is, what does that actually, what is, what does your, what does an average day look like for you?
Joy: Oh, you know, it's so crazy. I think that as a person who has your own company, it sounds like that could be the most flexible thing ever. And in some ways it is. And I've gone in so many phases, you know, this month, my business, oh, joy turned 17 years old. And so I've gone from having a, having a business with no children to then having children. And then adding another, and then also just ebbs and flows of businesses growing and expanding and ebbing and flowing and having a studio in the house. And having a studio outside house. So I've literally done every version I think, I could imagine at least up until today of it. And so I've learned a lot in terms of what makes sense for me, because I didn't don't think I always did it right.
You know, from the very beginning, I knew that I wanted to take advantage of the flexibility that comes with being a business owner. Um, and if you're not seeing me and you're hearing me, I'm doing flexibility in air quotes because it's sort of a facade in some ways , um, yes, you have flexibility in the sense that you could dictate your hours. You could dictate having summer Fridays, you could dictate working half days.
But also, as you know, when you have your own business, um, you also could be working all night while your kids are in bed. You could be working on the weekends. You could be working all hours because there's no nine to five. It doesn't just stop there. So I have found over the years that it has been about establishing my family's schedule first and what that needs to be.
You know, is it that I am making it a point to be at drop off and pick up? Is it that I can only do one and my husband does another? Is it that neither of us can do either and we have to rely on childcare? You know, what is that combination? And for us, it's definitely been lots of variations over the years.
And then from there I then carve out my workday in between what I need to be available for in terms of my family. So it's always been sort of a very, uh, set schedule in terms of my workday. You know, it's changed sometimes it was in an 8:30-4:30 thing. Like right now, for example, it's about eight 30 to about three because I am making myself available for all the drop offs and the pickups. And if I have the bonus of someone else doing it, great. Um, and so, and then I allow myself a little bit of time in the afternoons when they're home doing homework to do sort of a final check in.
I had a, I had a world in which for many years, from 7:00 PM to midnight, while my kids were in bed, I would go back to work. But I don't do that anymore because I'm in a different phase of life and I couldn't do it. And it was bad for not only my physical health, but my mental health.
And so it's really, here's the thing that I can sort of say to go back and really answer your question is that it's an ebb and flow. I don't think you can ever lock yourself into one answer to what that looks like. It's gonna changes as your work, business, professional life grows.
It's gonna change as your family grows. It's gonna change as your partner's work changes. You know, things are always changing. We don't have this, the same job forever.
And also knowing that it's okay, because I think that I'm such a type-A person, that in some cases, especially early on a parenthood, I thought that everything had to be one way. I thought that this is how it was supposed to be. And once we kind of decided that, here it is.
But as you know, when you have kids, they also change and you have to be flexible based on them and their ages. And once you have figured out a stage of life, babyhood, toddlerhood, small child, medium child, you, every single time you're kept on your toes and you have to re-figure it out.
So I, I think that's what I remember. And, you know, and whether you readjust that every year, every six months, every few years, whatever that is, it's that readjustment, to me, that is the key to then feeling like you can handle maybe not everything, but as much as is important to you.
And really it's always about priorities. What are your first, you know, few priorities? Make that, like your main thing on your calendar, on your schedule, and then you layer in your secondary, your tertiary and all of that around it.
Jelani: Hmm. I mean, uh, well one, wow. I'm getting like a master class in how to organize my own life. So thank you.
What I'm hearing from you. And I think the operative word that's brilliant is flexibility and being a parent, it's almost like sometimes we don't wanna be flexible cuz we feel like we're gonna get like one taken over on us from our kids. Right? It's like if we, if we give them the donut, now we'll always be giving them the donuts. So we like, we must say no.
How do you, how do you navigate that flexibility with your kids? What do, what do you find they respond to the best? Um, like more rigid, more flexible from a, from a flexible and work flexible at home, flexible schedule wise. Like what have you found they've actually responded to as, as they've grown up?
Joy: Well, you know, obviously when you come into parenting, you and your partner, if you have a partner, um, come at it from your own childhood. And it's either what you got out of your childhood that you loved or stuff from your childhood that you're like, oh, I would change that going forward. Right? So we're already coming in with information.
My husband and I both happen to be first generation Asian American with immigrant parents from different parts of Asia. So we've come to it with a certain mentality of like, “Okay ,we know what parts of how we were raised, made us who we are. But we also know there are parts that were maybe a little bit rigid or an expectation that was, you know, that was a lot in some senses that we wanna try to like, you know, edit a little bit with the way we raise our kids.”
I do think that we are on the more, um, strict and structured side compared to the full spectrum of parenting. I think it's partially the way that we were raised and the things that we think that did really work for us as we were growing up. Um, but we also, you know, for example, our parents worked all the time. They were never home because they were working and, um, we both have full-time jobs, but we are available much more. Like in a, in a sense that to the average American parent now would seem normal, but to our parents back then feels like we're very available. And so, you know, there are some of those things that are very intentional that we have carved out into our day and our jobs and our schedules and what we say yes and no to.
And then in terms of flexibility with the kids, I mean, as I said, we are probably on the more disciplined and structured side compared to the full spectrum of parents out there, but we find that that works for our family.
Also, you know, I personally have anxiety. And so, for somebody with anxiety, having structure, being organized really helps with that. I don't do well with haphazardness. And so to, to hone in on my own anxiety, it allows me to be more structured,. You know, it allows me to be more calm for my children, if that makes sense.
It's sort of setting these setting sort of how our, our day, our life, our general family structure is allows for a certain calmness that I wouldn't be able to bring if things were so haphazard. So because of that, I think our kids are very used to routine and structure.
You know, it doesn't mean that we don't go off that for a minute. There are certain times we know we need to leave the house to get to, you know, school on time. There are times that we have bedtime. Is there a little wiggle room in there? Sure. But we're not the parents where we, where we let them go. Another 30 minutes, another 60 minutes, et cetera, on a school night.
But will do they get, like, treats all the time if they are, they've had a great day? If they've been well behaved? Yes. I'm all, you know, like there are some things I'm very rigid on and there are some things I'm like very open about. I'm all about dessert. You can have dessert every single day, if you're a good kid and you've been nice to people and all that stuff. I don't mind that. Whereas, you know, there's some parents where like you never get dessert except your birthday.
And, and, and so everything is, and I think that that's the thing is that I learned very early on that you think there has to be one way, and for you, there can be a way, but there's so many versions of parenting out there that it really is what makes sense for you and your family.
And that, more importantly, that if you are parenting with a partner, that to me is the biggest thing to work on because that doesn't come naturally and come easily. Two people that love each other don't necessarily have the same views on how to raise children a hundred percent. Yeah. And that's always a work in progress, I find.
So to me, that's like the biggest part that is consistently how, you know, we have to work at not only managing everything, but also parenting and also like how our life goes as a family.
[BREAK]
Jelani: Welcome back to Better Grownups and my conversation with Joy Cho.
Jelani: Mm, well, first, um, we need an Oh Joy parenting book. I'm just saying that, uh, cause you've got a lot of this stuff figured out.
I'm struck by the, the care and attention that you and the intentionality around knowing how you and your spouse grew up, what you were given, those things that were positive, right. And those things that were negative that you wanted to jettison. Curating, you used the word edit, which I thought was actually really key. It's like, you've, you've edited some of those things to get to a better result.
And, and I, I heard two words, flexibility and rigidity, and I, and I thought. Those seemingly are antonyms, and yet both need to be present, right? You need to be able to be flexible with your kids. You need to be able to be flexible with your schedule. You need to be able to adapt and change as the kids grow, but there's also that rigidity and, and having, um, rules in the house having, um, even the self-care aspect of you managing your own anxiety by having more structure,
I think your kids are really lucky. Honestly, just to have you.
I, I… How did you get here? Like did you just start parenting? I was just going like, we're just gonna edit parenthood to the best result or was it sort of an evolution?
Joy: No. And, you know, I appreciate the fact that you're saying all these nice things about my, my, what appears to be my good parenting, but honestly, it's, it's a struggle. I mean, I can say this right now, like being able to look back at today and things I've learned, especially over the last few years where parenting has been very hard for us.
You know, we had one kid that had a very hard time during COVID and it put us in a situation of parenting that was very new that we had to relearn and re-figure out and go, you know, figure out through, you know, therapy. And, um, and I think that that is something that you… I think the first few years of my parenting, I would have been like, “No, this is how it's done. I'm not open to suggestions. This is what I think.”
And then I really had to relearn like, “Okay, my kid is becoming a kid with her own personality, her own anxiety, her own stuff that is just sort of like happening and we need to be able to figure out how to adjust to her also.” Like, the way that we were responding to her when this was first happening, wasn't working as much as we wanted to be like, “No, this is the way that you discipline a child, or this is the way you respond to a child with anxiety or who's having an outburst.” But when you realize it's not working, then you have to try something different.
And my husband and I both were very much like, “Okay, You know? We gotta try something different.” And that has helped us so much as a family because now as things change, cuz they're going to, as we enter tween teen, whatever the next stage is, we now in our mind know, “Okay, yes, rigidity in something, scheduling something, structuring some things. But we also can't apply that to every single moment of life.” It's just not possible. And each of our kids are different, even if they have the same DNA, roughly their personality is gonna be different. And we can't assume that because this one kid responds well to this, that the other kid will.
And I just think I assumed. Oh, yeah, just do the same thing for all your children and it doesn't, it doesn't work like that.
So, so, you know?
Jelani: If it were that easy.
Joy: Yeah, it would that's way too easy. Way too easy.
Jelani: Yeah. Well, you brought up something, this sort of idea of kids changing and growing and, um, you've got kids in that sort of transition of where they're growing up and they're no longer sort of toddlers, diapers.
You know, give me, give me a sense of how you've chosen to navigate that as a parent and what some of those challenges are as they sort of enter this new territory?
Joy: Yeah. I mean, I touched upon, you know, anxiety coming up for one of our kids, which was probably the most difficult thing for us, especially for me, because I have, I have anxiety too. That you see something that is inside you, that you've passed on to your child.
And it's not saying it's bad, you know? Uh, it's just something that you, I have learned how to work through, and I've learned how to function with, but when you see a child first developing it in the early stages, you know, equipping, equipping them with the tools to be able to know like, okay, if you have anxiety, it's cool. It's fine. Like, we all have different things, but here are the tools to help you because this is something you're going to have to work through, you know, throughout your life. And if we can help you now, you're gonna be much more prepared, you know, as you, as you get older and as things get harder.
Jelani: When you were a kid, did you know you had anxiety?
Joy: No, because mental health and talking about that stuff was not a thing that ever came up in my house.
Looking back, the things that I did, getting stomach aches before tests, getting like, you know, not being able to sleep, um, in response to schoolwork or worrying about a test or whatever, I now know was anxiety, but I had no idea back then. And so for us to be able to like, see that now in our kids and to be able to help them now with it and help them with the tools I think is so important because it wasn't.
I think that back in those times, generally, it wasn't as talked about as it is now mental health, but also within Asian community it wasn't. And that, and that's a big problem and that's something that I think still needs a lot of work. And so my husband and I are very adamant about like, this is, you know, we're nipping in the bud, the things that are the previous generation thought. Like, no, you just suck it up. You just take it, figure out your problems. Don't bother anybody else. Like all the sort of like that thinking now, it's like, no, we're here to help you. They are solutions. And we wanna equip you with the tools to help you in your life. We can't do it all for you, but we can help give you the tools. And I think so that's been sort of like the biggest thing.
And then in terms of them growing, you know, my, my kids are next month, eight and 11. And so it's been interesting cuz I also have two girls raising kids who are now aware and growing up in this time of social justice and um, the world at large having so many things going on that are talked about, you know, it's not just on the news anymore.
It's like, they overhear me and my husband talking about things. They overhear me and friends talking about things. And so they're, especially my older one is very much in like a, you know, if someone says something that is not PC and says something to her about her culture or something that is just not quite right, she's like, so ready to just be like “Ahhh!” You know? “I'm gonna show you what's up”
But it's also like, okay, I want you to be passionate about that. I want you to stand up for yourself. I want you to stand up for your friends and for the things that are right. But we also need to know how to talk to people in a way that doesn't, um, come off as like, I'm just angry, like have a conversation. You can still come at somebody with kindness who might not agree with you. And this stuff comes up all the time in school, you know.
There's a, a micro, you know, microaggressions getting mixed, you know, a, the Asian kids getting mixed up and getting called the wrong name. Like, things were like, nobody is intentionally doing something, but we've learned a lot and we need to keep learning more.
And I, and my kids are at this age where I'm also teaching them to stand out for themselves in the ways that I couldn't when I was a kid. And I didn't know how to, um, and speaking up, but also do trying to do it a nice way.
[BREAK]
Jelani: We’re back. You’re listening to Better Grownups, and my conversation with Joy Cho.
Jelani: Well, I wanna transition a little bit, uh, you know, uh.
A Kids Co. I'm the founder there, uh, we have a whole publishing operation, which is the thing we're most known for. Making books on, you know, topics about grief, cancer, death, loneliness, love, etcetera, um, all for kids. And, and you're one of our authors, uh, for A Kids Book About Confidence.
And I wanted to dig a little bit into. Irony is not the right word, uh, because you seem so integrated. Um, but as a fellow introvert, I'm, I'm pretty good at recognizing other introverts. And you strike me as an introvert. Dare I say, a shy person and, and definitely through the process of making the book with you. It's like, yeah, there's, there's this story in it about you sort of finding your voice and like that finding your confidence. Right.
You now run basically like a design empire. Um, you know, like you've worked with like every big brand in the world. You, you have 400 plus thousand Instagram followers. You are the most followed person on Pinterest. Um, you are a straight up influencer.
How do you not crumble under the absolute weight of being out there so much? Like, I'm just like, I, I realize I gotta try and shrink into this little box where I like let the company go out forward. And I just like try and hide behind the company in so many ways. But, if you follow you on it, it's you, you know, you're showing these cool outfits, you're designing these cool things. You're and, and yet it feels totally authentic. It feels totally you.
And I know, look, this is like a parenting podcast and we're like way off script here, but I'm, I'm fascinated by you. And what clearly seems like a fully integrated self that is fully mom, fully entrepreneur, fully influencer, and you're never changing that person for those con you're, you're never becoming a totally different person.
How? I just like what, what, what, what is the, what's the magic ingredient here? What did you find? What did you discover? What, like, um, somehow all those ingredients fit together to make you, I think this really remarkable, unique person.
Joy: Wow. Thank you. That was, that was like such an interesting look at an outside view of what you know. It's cool. It's cool to, it's cool to hear the perception and how it does or doesn't, you know, what's real and what's not and all that stuff.
But you are the first person to, to know that I'm an introvert from not without asking me because most people think that I'm an extrovert because I am like the face of my brand. And if you meet me out in real life and we are talking, I'm, you know, I'm not gonna hide in a corner. I'm gonna talk to you. I'm gonna have a conversation. I'm gonna be social, but I don't thrive off of like that type of interaction.
I can do it and I will be fine, but I think, and that, I don't think I ever thought about this until you said it. I think that, you know, I've grown in confidence a ton. Hence why I wrote that book, but I was able to scoop enough of my shyness out during my phase of, you know, tween to teen, to adulthood that I can do the things that I need to do. Like I can talk in front of people. I can give keynote speeches to hundreds or thousands of people, you know, I can present a pitch. I can do all of those things. Cause to me, those are separate from introvertedness right.
I can be outward and I can be like that person because it's part of me and because it's about things I believe in, and that I love and I'm passionate about and all that stuff. But as soon as I'm done with that stuff, I need to go home and be quiet and like, not talk to anybody or, and that's, that's introvert, right? Like you, you need to recoup a little bit more than some people do.
And I think that because my business started, so I started my business in 2005 for context. This is the early days of social media, you know, pre-Instagram. I was, you know, started a blog in 2005 before people knew what blogs were. I think that I was actually able to, hi, like not hide behind is not the right word, but I was able to be sort of myself because of social media. Because it's not like… my networking was all virtual. My networking was through posting things on social media, sharing, who I am through that, responding to people, being social with people virtually, however, that is.
But it was, it's not like the old fashioned days of what I feel like networking is. And people still do it these days. I just don't do it where you have to go to a party and schmooze and you have to hop knob and all those things where you're like, “Hey, I'm Joy. Here's my business card, blah, blah, blah, blah. like.
That kind of networking is not something that I can do with any regularity. And it, it, it gives me so much anxiety to think about it, even when I have to, sometimes it just like, it really takes a lot for me to show up and, and make it so that I like am not wanting to hide in a corner.
So I think honestly, the internet allowed me to do that. Cause if you think about it, most of the time, I mean, I've had employees, I've had the team, I have to work with people all day. And variety of people, which is great. I love that. But for the most part, what I am projecting out there is in front of a phone or a camera or a photo or whatever.
And so I'm able to sort of be myself and be enthusiastic and all of that because I'm not always physically with a lot of people. And when I am physically with a lot of people, I've done book signings, you know, I've done events pre COVID when we were able to do all that stuff all the time. And I loved it because I'm there in the moment and I can do it, but it's not something I could have done every single day or it's not something that I could have, you know, had be like a huge part of my, my work life.
So it's probably, it's probably that, honestly, because I think I'm also able to, like, it's not like a turn on turn off because it is me, you know, different versions of me. But I also, now at this point, again, like for my mental health, know that if I need to do something very social and very public, um, not public, but social, I should say, that I'm then giving myself recoup time. Um, because otherwise I will, I will burn out.
You know, I, I have a certain limit of how long I can be talking and be present and, and all of that um, before my brain just sort of like shuts off .
Jelani: Now that I, that makes so much sense. And I, I guess out of that, I have a question: For parents of introvert kids who maybe aren't introverts themselves. Maybe they are, I don't know. Go back to little Joy, little 11 year old Joy.
What, what do you wish you were given? 11 year old introvert, anxious, Joy that, that you can offer to parents that they can give to their kids today?
Joy: I mean, there's nothing that I would've changed about what I was given or in terms of, because I think that the way that I was raised actually helped a lot with my introverted ways. But in ways that didn't allow, like, because my parents were working all the time, I didn't actually have the opportunity to do a lot of activities or go to a lot of parties or do things like that. So it was very, um, easy for me to just, yeah. You know, be at home and be at homebody and just focus on my homework and stuff. So I wasn't pushed to socialize or I wasn't pushed to have to be in those settings.
So I guess maybe I just answered my own, your own your question is that I think that it would've helped me to have been pushed a little bit to do those things. But I also think that I figured it out. You know? Maybe not as at 11, but I figured it out later in life. And so I, I don't really regret any of that. But knowing what I know now from my own kids and the life that we have, which is much different than the life that I grew up having. I'm also.
I think it's a mix. I think it's a mix because I think that while kids will always have preferences for things, you know, for example, my younger one when school kind of came back and birthday parties came back post pandemic, and we were now being invited to how many birthday parties a year from classmates. We gave her a choice at first to say, “Hey, do you wanna go to this birthday party?” And she would, she would make the decision maybe based on if she even was friends with that kid, you know, like, you know, you have people in your class or your grade, but sometimes you don't even talk to them. Right? So I respected that also, it was one less thing for me to have to drive to on a weekend. So she was saying no, I was fine with it.
But then by the end of last school year, we realized that she had not gone to any birthday party she was invited to. And finally, like the last one or two, we were like my husband and I talked about it separately. And then we decided to make her go. And she didn't wanna go.
And then she went and she had fun and she was like, “Oh, I guess birthday parties aren't so bad.” And I was like, “Most kids love going to birthday parties. They want see their friends outside of school, they just run free. There's some activity, there's a ton of cake and a ton of food. Like why wouldn't you?” You know?
And for me, I think that I was okay letting her say no, because then it would for, because when, if she goes her birthday party, I have to socialize with more parents. I have to potentially socialize with parents that I don't know, that I'm not already friends with, which is my comfort zone is if I'm already friends with you. But if I, then I have to make small talk and talk about all the things.
And so I was hiding behind her. My, you know, my introvertedness was hiding behind her introvertedness, so it was sort of a push for both of us to, to say, “Hey try it out.”
And, and that's the thing is I think that, you know, um, it, it's the same thing that goes with like sports. If your kid wants to quit a sport, you know, I heard a great tip from another, uh, parent I follow on social media and she said, you know, “If my kid wants to quit a sport, I make them, they have to tell their coach that they're quitting or they wanna quit piano. They have to tell their piano teacher that they're quitting.”
And that brings another layer into it because it really makes the kid think, “Oh, shoot. I can't just hide behind my parents and have my parents tell them, and then I just never show up again.” It makes them accountable. It makes 'em have a conversation. The teacher's gonna have some sort of reaction and just check in with them. And I know it's an interesting thing. So I do think that there's, there's a mix of, you know, maybe flexibility, like the theme of this conversation today.
But there's a mix of having your kids have opinions and know what they feel comfortable with. But also if you're seeing that it's not allowing them to grow, that there does need to be a little bit of nudge a nudge, you know? Um, and it does not have to be throwing somebody in the water in the deep end that doesn't know how to swim. It's like, “Oh, let's sit at the shallow end and dip our feet in. You know, it's like, what is that version for whatever it is that your child is apprehensive about or avoiding.
Because here's the thing, is that in life: You can't just be that this one way all the time, you know, I can be introverted and I could not wanna be social and not want to mingle at a party, but that's not real life. I'm gonna have to do it sometimes.
And so to be able to, I need to still make it so that I know how to do that when I have to do that. So it's like helping your kid, even if they don't feel comfortable in something, or it's not naturally them still equipping them enough to be able to do those things when they need to do those things.
Jelani: Well, Joy Cho, founder, creative director, uh, author, um, badass and, and now parenting expert. Thank you so much for this conversation.
Joy: Thank you for having me.
[CLOSING]
Jelani: Thanks again to Joy and to you for listening.
You can find Joy at @JoyCho on Instagram.
And keep up with me at @jelanimemory on Twitter.
I really would love to hear what you think of the show, questions you want answered, and guests you’d like to hear from on the show.
Just email us at listen@akidsco.com.
Better Grownups is written and hosted by me, Jelani Memory. Matthew Winner was the producer on this episode, with additional production support from Chad Michael Snavely and the team at Sound On Studios.
Explore our collection of empowering kids books made to empower, by visiting akidsco.com.
Jelani: There you’ll also find our growing network of original podcasts for kids. No matter who they are, what their interests, or what big questions they’re asking, we are making shows just for them.
Find all of our shows on Apple Podcasts or wherever podcasts are found.