Kevin Carroll, an author, speaker, and catalyst of inspiration, talks about the open invitation kids give us to play.
Jelani Memory talks with Kevin Carroll, an author, speaker, and catalyst of inspiration.
We promise you've never met anyone like Kevin. Even though he was abandoned by his parents at six years old, he went on to play soccer professionally, speak seven languages for military intelligence and, you know, become the The Philadelphia 76ers first Black head athletic trainer. He's also maybe the only person who's ever created his own job and title at Nike during his tenure. Kevin’s story is full of inspiration, insight, and wisdom.
We get into his childhood, how he was raised by his grandparents, and the supremacy of the playground when it comes to building belonging and connections. And also his life as a single dad raising two sons.
Kevin and Jelani have known each other ever since Jelani was a teenager. So if it sounds like they go back, they do. He's been a friend, mentor, and father figure to Jelani, and Jelani’s thrilled to share one of his favorite people with you.
Learn more about Kevin at his site, kckatalyst.com.
Contact us by emailing us at listen@akidsco.com.
Explore our collection of empowering kids books, by visiting akidsco.com.
Better Grownups
S1E01, Everything Begins with Play with Kevin Carroll
[INTRODUCTION]
Jelani: Hey, welcome to Better Grownups. I’m Jelani Memory, founder and CEO of a kids co. and this is a parenting podcast all about how to be a better grownup.
This week I’m talking to Kevin Carroll who is an author, speaker, and Katalyst of inspiration. I promise you’ve never met anyone like Kevin.
Abandoned by his parents at 6 years old, he went on to play soccer professionally. Speaks 5 languages that he learned for his work in military intelligence. He also became the NBA’s third black head athletic trainer (and also the first black athletic trainer for the 76ers).
And may be the only person ever to create their own job and title at Nike during his 7-year tenure there.
We get into his childhood, being raised by his grandparents, the supremacy of the playground, how to build connections, and his life as a single dad raising two sons.
A quick note: Kevin and I have known each other since I was a teenager. So if it sounds like we go back… well, we do. He’s been a friend, mentor, and father figure to me and I’m thrilled to share one of my favorite people with you.
Jelani: Ok, Kevin Carroll, let’s get into it.
[INTERVIEW]
Jelani: Kevin, welcome to the show.
Kevin: Thrilled to be here, Jelani. Anytime we can have some discourse and a robust convo you know, it's delightful and I enjoy spending time with you.
Jelani: Well, always good chatting with you, and I'm so excited to talk about your journey as a parent.
Um, so let's get right into it. Um, I have this firm belief that who we become as parents is often heavily informed by how we grew up. So tell us a little bit about how you grew up.
Kevin: I grew up amidst upheaval and uncertainty, dysfunction and disappointment, abandonment and addiction, but I got rescued by my grandparents and the neighborhood that I grew up in and my best friend's mom.
And that changed my whole journey to become the parent that I am. Had it not been for that intervention, who knows what would've happened. And maybe I just repeat history and continue that same history of that behavior as a parent, but they were the pattern interrupt. They were the disruptors, the neighborhood, my grandparents and Ms. Lane. And so that really informed, I think really clearly informed the parent that I am today.
Jelani: Mm, talk a little bit about your grandparents. What did they give you?
Kevin: So, you know, what I think is interesting about my grandparents is, you know, being raised by grandparents, you take on their moral, you know, the morals and their values.
So I skip a generation. So they're the ones that went through, you know, a depression, you know, they went through the depression, right? Mm-hmm they went through the, um, civil rights movement. They went through all those things where they were clearly marginalized. Um, the Northern migration, cuz my family came from a and South Carolina up to the north of Philadelphia area.
So I'm taking on all that as a child. And so that's very different than my peers. So their sensibilities, their beliefs, their habits, the way that you show up, all those things I'm my grandparents. Also a lot of people from the south say, oh, and you're Southern too, because you use a lot of Southern terms.
So I think that's, what's unique about how I was raised. In my grandparents and their effect, especially my grandmother, because she was mixed. So she was German and Black. So she was raised in a German household, which was very strict. And, you know, you had very specific things. You better be home by five. My mom.
Oh. Or you don't, you don't get to eat. So that strikes getting cl we're running from the playground. Like we gotta get home by everybody. Right. Cause we knew if you went in that door, you're not eating, that was the rule. You need to be here. Hands washed, seated at the table. So these were things, rules and discipline, and, but it was so loving.
It wasn't in a punitive way. It was really loving and it gave us structure cuz we didn't have structure up till that point. Right. We were moving and yeah, sleeping and cars and the abandonment and all those things and then they gave a structure. And as a child, we welcomed that we loved it. And so my grandparents, I truly believe gave me a foundation.
That I still, you know, adhere to, to this day. I'm very disciplined. I can stick to something for years, right. Habits, all those kinds of things, making my bed. Right. All those, you know, cleaning up after yourself, all those things were instilled in me from my grandparents.
Jelani: Hmm. That's wonderful. But there's, there's something you said.
And I never thought about this before, around the skipping of a generation that you got the generation before your parents, the ideas, the morals, the way of life. And I have lots of conversations with my own kids about the generational differences and, and how, how much them to stand on my shoulders to, to be better than me to go further than me to know more than me and I. And I see, especially gen Z, embracing these ideals and values that are beyond what we as millennial parents bring, or at least my wife and I, um, but I never thought about that going in reverse and, and the value that that might bring to you as a parent and, and navigating not only your own life, but your life raising your kids.
Kevin: And I think that's the appeal.
Why I, why I'm appealing to gen-Zers because I have these, I'm not my generation, I'm my grandparents. So it's familiar to them because they're grandparents. Yeah. So I got that grandparent vibe. And so they're always like you remind me of my auntie or my uncle or my, my grandma, my, my grandfather. Like wow, like those sayings and those things. And so I think that has served me well in my efforts to connect with, you know, Many generations and different gen and age groups. And so I think that's a, that's why I think I am able to shape shift if you will, right. And vary my voice and to be someone who can interact with whatever level you're at and I can meet you where you are.
Jelani: Mm. Which is maybe one of the most important skills as a parent. Um, and I think a thing that we often are able to do with the kids outside of our homes, sometimes more challenging with the kids inside of our own homes, because it's almost like we know them too well and they know us too well.
Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. Too much history.
Jelani: Yeah. Yeah.
[BREAK]
Jelani: Welcome back to Better Grownups and my conversation with Kevin Carroll.
Jelani: So, I wanna get, you know, you have this tumultuous childhood, you get to adulthood and, and I know your story and the, um, utter shape shifting and meeting that moment and adapting to the situation from a career that you've had, um, uh, get us from, from, from 19 on, through, uh, to now both career wise and as a parent.
Kevin: I think when I was a child, I made a promise to myself.
I would never be my parents. I don't know it was probably unspoken, but it was thought of that when I become a parent, I'm not gonna be my parents. Yeah. And I had these other examples models of good parenting around me, Ms. Lane, Mr. Lane, my grandparents, other kids' moms and dads. So I'm going through my now adulthood or adulting and growing up part with that still firmly in.
And I become a young parent while I'm ascending in my career. So at 20 years old, I become a parent. And I'm in college and I have to make a big decision, but my grandparents are there, not my parents. So what would they do if you become a young father? You gotta get married. So my grandfather said, you gotta do the right thing.
And there was never a question. Oh, are you prepared? Are you ready for that? Or anything was okay, pop pop. And I get married and I join the air force and I go right from this kid going to college, playing soccer and hanging out with my friends to an adult. 20 years old, but I had this foundation I've I had these models, right.
So I'm trying to basically in some way imitate them, but I still don't have enough emotional intelligence and understanding of who I am. So I'm just trying to be that that I've seen. But I also had this promise. That I'm not going to be my parents. So I'm really intentional about being different. And as I go through my journey from the Air Force for 10 years, to getting my degree to in athletic training, becoming an athletic trainer, moving back to Philadelphia, becoming a single father and raising my two boys on my own.
Now I'm even doubling down on I'm not gonna be my dad. And being present being at, as, as many things as possible, having my kids at the training room, cuz they can hang out there cause it's just a big playground. And so they can be around me, but also be around a lot of other people who became basically their aunties and uncles. And I'm present.
And that was my goal. I'm not going to be them. So my goal was to be present. Athletic training, high school, college professional level and the NBA. And then I get an opportunity to be around my boys more by moving to Portland and joining Nike. Now we're all the way across the country and we get a chance to meet you first day, within hours of us moving into our house, we meet you and I'm, and you're understanding the story too, cuz you're seeing the dynamic of our family.
Mm. Oh, here's a single dad with two boys. Oh, huh. And they're like 12, 13 years old.
Jelani: I, and, and, and just to, to cut in, I re I remember. I remembered that something was unusual, but I couldn't put my finger on it.
Kevin: Because you're young too. Right.
Jelani: And it was like, what's different. And, and it was like, it wasn't just that, you know, you, you were a, a Black man raising two Black sons.
And I was a little Black boy with a single white mom. And, and, and it was like this, this welcomeness of going there's Black people in our neighborhood. Yes. Right. um, Uh, there was a little bit of that, but, um, the absence of my own dad in my life, um, it wasn't that you like immediately filled a void or anything like that.
It was just, it was like this, like I had saw unicorn and I was like, oh, those exist. Like to me, dads weren't around let alone dad being the only one around. And I love to dive into that a little more, like. and navigating that life as a single dad, because, you know, when you became a dad, you said you weren't ready.
And I, I, I wonder if you ever got to that point where you felt ready or maybe all the readiness that was needed was just being present and, and going through that process of growing up while you raised your kids.
Kevin: Yeah. And I think maybe the readiness was just the decision to be present, but also that promise I made to myself that I'm not gonna repeat history.
So that sitting in front of you, right? That's your bar, right? I'm not going to dip below that I'm going to I'm exceed, like you just said, putting my children on my shoulders, your shoulders, you said that, yeah. I was not going to allow my past to in any way infiltrate my boys' lives. And that was a promise I made.
So I was going to find a way to elevate them beyond that experience. No matter what it took. And so that intention was so present every single day to not be that. And so maybe it's not necessarily the healthiest thing, like to use that as your motivation or maybe it was, but, and it allowed me to always be able to pay attention to my intention around that.
And to be available and to go to things and to, if I can't be there, fly Ms. Lane out to watch my boys and get them the things when I had to travel for Nike, I mean, I just found ways to make sure they were always nurtured. And then I said, it will never be because I wasn't available or I didn't provide for them.
And it wasn't a monetary thing and stuff. It was just my presence and them feeling loved and them feeling protected and them feeling safe. Mm. And those were all things I lacked. Right?
Jelani: Yeah. I, I can vouch for that in, in a very specific way. So, you know, I'm a grown man now, but I've known you since I was a teenager and was best friends with your son, Keith, growing up and I remember you being at every game, every soccer game, every basketball game. And you'd sit way up in the bleachers way off to the side. You never talked to really anybody. Um, but you were always at every game and, um, and even then I knew how important you were and your role at Nike and the things that you did.
And, and I'm sure you could have had a thousand excuses to miss a hundred games anytime to go, oh, I gotta travel to this place. I gotta be at this place. They need me to speak at this thing, but you were always there and it was never, it was never a big thing. It was never like, see, I made it I'm present.
I'm I'm doing my job, you know what I mean? It was, it was just natural. And, and I even think about my own journey as a father. That's something that I've kept in the back of my head is, is that's that's default. That's not over and above. That's not me being special. That's not me being super dad. That's just default is being present in my kids' lives and at the things that are important to them.
Kevin: Mm-hmm. And you witnessing that tangentially, maybe that seeped in right. And so, and like you said, in the recesses of your mind, but there is a memory. And there's an image of it. And maybe then that when you get your family, it's unspoken, but I'm doing that. Yeah. To the best of my ability, I'm gonna do that because I saw a model of that, cuz I think you have to see something and you have to see yourself in that those examples really make a difference in how it shapes your approach to parenting.
Jelani: Yeah. I, I think 100% and you. Growing up without a dad and having a single mom who, who definitely was present and was there and put food on the table and, and really worked her butt off to, to provide for us kids. There was a chasm and a gap, and I made that same promise to myself that I was always gonna be present with my kids.
Um, but I wonder if that, that promise is enough or the modeling that come along with that promise with people in your life. And I think of my own father figures that I've collected along the way that have been that model for me, that have shown me the way, I guess. You know, it sounds like that was your grandparents.
It sounds like that was Ms. Lane, Mr. Lane, and other folks.
Kevin: This crazy group of people in the neighborhood, all the, I mean, I'm a mosaic of many people. I that's what I've always said. I'm pieces of all of them and good and bad. Right. Cause I learned from some, you know what I called, you know, positive deviants in our neighborhood.
Right. They were good people, but they were also doing some dirt. Right. I mean, they were around. It was fine. And you understood, and there was clarity of who they were, but they also would just dole out like this wisdom every time and again, yeah. Right. And they were always present. So you were watching them and learning from them, you know, good or bad.
And so I think absolutely I'm a mosaic of many and that's informed me. And then as I got older, I could basically benchmark best practices. You know, basically cherry pick the things I wanted to hold onto and actively practice. And so that's where I think when you asked that question, how did I start to form me?
It took time mm-hmm but what is that phrase? Babies raising babies. Mm-hmm I was that right. I was a, I was a baby raising babies, but I had a little more years, so I tried to just stay out in front of them as much as I could. Right. And you know, sometimes I don't peek behind a curtain. I'm not really sure what we're doing here, but act like I know what I'm doing, but for the most part, you know, I could tell that I was accelerating because I was being surrounded by more examples and I was getting reps. I was getting the practice of doing it. And so I think that really made a difference when I started getting more reps and more practice in it got better like anything.
[BREAK]
Jelani: We’re back. You’re listening to Better Grownups, and my conversation with Kevin Carroll.
Jelani: I wanna segue a little bit. Uh, folks who are listening, who know you are gonna know you as the play guy, the Red Rubber Ball guy. I want you to talk a little bit about that, that journey around play and the red rubber ball, and sort of what it's come to mean to you. And then, kids are ready for all sorts of stuff. It's us that are bad at stuff, as parents, as grownups. How we incorporate more play into our lives, how we become more playful, especially when it comes to being with our kids.
Kevin: I think what I learned really quickly around play and movement and the red rubber ball.
Which is basically the metaphor for movement and play and sports for me was that it w it actually instigated belonging and connection, which is what I was longing for. Hmm. And so the playground in our neighborhood was this epicenter of energy and sports was a big deal in our neighborhood. I figured it out really quickly, like, in order for me to fit in, I gotta lean into this. Okay. And I leaned into it. I happened to be clever in the way I played. I had a high athletic IQ. I wasn't the biggest, but I was quick. And you know, all those things that served me well, , but it didn't matter at our playground. If you were the best athlete or you were average, everybody was allowed to play.
And in fact it was a rule. No one was allowed to be standing on the sideline. If the old heads were walking through and they saw someone just stand, they'd stop your game. How come that kid stand over there? Why is it why that kid in the game? Figure that out. And they wait for you to figure it out. Mm-hmm.
And then as soon as the game started up again, they'd walk away and they wouldn't say like good job or whatever, they would just continue with where they were heading to. But I understood it was inclusion. It was welcoming, it was belonging. And so I really paid attention to the power of that. And I said, oh, I want that in my life.
And this is affiliated. I'm gonna double down on this, this sport and play and this red, rubber ball. the importance of it. And that was the genesis of me always being attached to sports and play. And then that, you know, basically filtered into my academics and I became really strong reader and a good student.
And then it, you know, in infiltrated other things like, oh, well that's literally a play. But you guys are having fun. I wanna try that. Oh, that's a orchestra. You learn to play, play a instrument. I wanna try that. And so I was looking for any version of a team. So I was in school plays. I did Shakespeare as a kid.
I was in the school orchestra. I was on sports teams. They were just all teams, but they were all representing play to me and also belonging and connection and community and inclusion. And it was unconditional because we all had the same, you know, goal in mind. We wanna do a phenomenal performance, right.
Play a great game, play a great Sonata, right. Do an amazing job on stage. So the red rubber ball represents what gets you out of bed in the morning? What inspires you to chase? Right. And what's your play. I always ask that of adults. What's your advocation hobby. Something that you enjoy that just bring it tickles your brain.
What's that thing that tickles your brain. And the more that an adult can go to that place, they model that for their children. But we actually can learn from our kids and relearn it. If we've allowed it to atrophy, Jelani, this is what I always say. You got these amazing examples right in front of you, if you don't squelch it.
Yeah, that, what's the first thing we do when we have little infants and toddlers parents get on the floor and play mm-hmm , it's like they got an open invitation, but they feel like they have permission again. And that's the thing that's taken away from adults. They forget no one ever took permission from you.
You created this narrative, this false narrative that you don't have permission to play until I have a little one until I have a grandchild or a niece or a nephew. No, it's always been there. So that's what I do my work in around my play therapy. If you will, with adults, I remind them that you are safe. It's welcome for you.
And you're allowed to play. You have permission. And so I help them actually reawaken their play muscle is what I always say to them. And they discover that they never lost their ability. They just allowed it to get weak mm-hmm . And so we just reawaken their play muscle and I give them ideas around how to strengthen it again.
I tell them, you can learn from your children. So reverse mentoring is actually a thing, like learn from someone junior to you. Don't always look for the elder to pour into you. Your child could teach you something, give them an opportunity to create a play day and learn from them.
Jelani: Why do we, why do we lose this permission or this sense of play as we get older, where does it go?
Kevin: Think about what happens in school, Jelani. You need to get serious. You need to figure out what you're gonna do with your life. Wagging finger wagging finger. Okay. I guess I better, what are you gonna do with your life? You can't play your whole life.
These are the phrases we hear. And so you take those to heart. Oh, I better buckle down. I better get serious, but you better find a job. And so what happens is you start marginalizing it and pushing it away, which is one of the worst things to do. But we do it because, oh, that person's a learned person. Oh, that person's a wise person.
Oh, I believe them. I better do that. And many parents do it to their kids. I've done that artist question. I think I've told you this, right? I can ask a first grader class. How many of you are artists? Both hands go up. Whole class. I can ask fourth graders. How many of you are artists? Half the class, one hand. I ask high school students, how many of your artists? Hundreds of kids. No one raises their hand at first and then their friends are like, you know, you can draw, put your hand up and they sheepishly raise their hand. So what happened from this to this? Was someone told you, oh, you can't draw or you are not creative or you're not something.
And you believe them. And that's the thing that we have to get better at is not telling folks you're not something, Hey, if that's what sparks you, how can I actually encourage you more? If that's the thing that you, that tickles your brain? And if a parent is present, they'll see it right. They'll notice it, that their child always seems to stop and stare at that thing, anytime you're out and about, or they're in the car and they're just staring like, wow, right.
Take your mental notes, feed that, feed that, feed that. And I think that's what happens to young people is you are told you're not something. And then it becomes your. and then when you get older, of course, you're angry that somebody told you that and you gotta rediscover it. You have a midlife crisis or whatever, and, you know, you want to get back to, but I'm saying fight against that rage against the machine, if you will. But it starts with the parents to do that.
Jelani: Well, I feel like you're, you're almost calling me into confession a little bit here. Uh, cause
Kevin: you know, rev cut comes out every once in a while. Right.
Jelani: Having six kids, um, you know, and being on the cycle of like wake up. Get all the six kids to like, be the, doing the things, get to work, do the work.
And I like love my job and it's like, get done with work and then drive kids places maybe during the middle of the day, do that, get dinner, ready, spend some time with family, and then, you know, like nighttime routines with our toddlers, nighttime routines with our teenagers have some time with my wife and then do it all over again.
Forget about anything blowing that up. That's disruptive or bad, or, you know, that happens. It wasn't expected. Right. And, and I find when I'm tired, and when I'm frustrated and when, uh, I just, I just need that recharge. I go straight into like, brush your teeth, do your chores, you know, who left this out?
Close the freezer door. Uh, you know what I mean? And mm-hmm, when my kids are like, look at this drawing. I did. And I'm like, ah, but you left the, the napkins out. Like where are the napkins? You know what I mean? Yes. Um, and, and I feel, I feel even in that moment, the guilt of it and, and, and almost the shame along with it, cuz I, I know it's the wrong response.
So very like directly from me to you is like, what's the thing that I need to do before I hit that moment. That makes me not hit that moment as a dad.
Kevin: So you, yeah. And I think you have to start to create these rituals around that. So you, you were an athlete and you know, the deal athletes should wear rubber bands, right?
So they wear rubber band and when they were bad play turn, they maybe snap it. Or they have a ritual before they shoot their free throw. They snap the rubber band to remind them of a certain, you know, way they need to follow through or whatever. What do you have on you? Because you can feel when it's stirring up, what is that ritual?
What is that practice? What is that pattern interrupt? That even if it's just tugging on your pants or tapping your pocket, like you can, you already know it's happening in you. So how do you actually create a habit, a new habit to pause yourself, to make you pause, to pump the brakes if you will. And take a beat.
Your brain's already saying the words, but now you forced your, you forced your body to pause and your mouth to pause. I know I could say this, like, cuz you can process real fast. I know I could say this, but is this the best thing to say? Hmm. Breath. Maybe now the conversation changes, but we are so frenetic in everything in our responses, school, we're just trying to get stuff done.
Jelani, how can you be more, less transactional and more transformational with your kids?
Jelani: Mm, well, I'll give you an example and this is to, to not to pat myself on the back, but, um, I, I realized a very long time ago with my, my first bio kid, Ella. I was, I was racing through reading time. I was like, I don't really like this.
I'm just gonna, I'm like, I'm gonna zoom through this book. Like, I'm gonna skip words. We're gonna just skip pages, like this is gonna be down real fast. Cause all, all she wants me to do is like, know that I've read the book. She doesn't know what's in the book. Right. Until she started to like hear the stories and be like, you missed a page.
Um, and then eventually I was like, why am I racing through this? I'm I'm never gonna be happy that I, I spent little time reading to my kid and lots of time watching Netflix after the, like, I, I'm never gonna feel good about that time and balance. And so I started to slow myself way down and started to see actually how long can I extend bedtime?
To get the most meaningful time with my kid, cuz ultimately your kids just like it's like pure quality time, like forget roadblocks, forget TikTok, like getting that time before bed and kids wanna drag it as long as possible. So I just thought, why not embrace this? And, and reading became the way that I did that.
And so one book turns to two books, turns to three books turns to like now I can't put my toddler down. Like literally he's we pick out three books every night, every night without fail. We also have to sing three songs. We have to do a whole series of rituals and, and I started to fall in love with that, cuz it also slowed me down.
It made me not feel so, you know, a five minute bedtime I'd be frustrated about, but somehow half an hour turned into this really sweet and wonderful experience because I was embracing it for what it was instead of trying to break out of it and get away and, and make it as short and sort of brief as possible.
Kevin: Well, your kids are telling you something without the words, cuz they don't have the words yet or the language is that I just wanna be with you. That's why they're trying to extend it. I just wanna be with you. Right, because you were out and about and going, and I'm not sure what you were doing because you're, you know, they don't understand, but you were going.
So this is my clever ploy to keep you close. And I think when you pause to really like, understand, like whenever that epiphany happened, like, oh, wait, I see what's happening here. I'm doubling down on this because this is not gonna last forever, but the memories will, those memories will be there and will be firmly embedded.
And when you are dealing with some difficulty and when you are maybe struggling, it's gonna be a look that you give your child. That's going to spark a moment from the childhood where they remember. oh, you don't have it out for me. You're not trying to up upend me. No, I remember who you are. And that's what I think you're, you're, you're depositing in the Goodwill bank then mm-hmm right for when you get, when, cuz you're gonna struggle with them.
They're gonna go through all the physiology changes in teen years and all that and different person every day. Cuz you're like, who are you today? Like, I'm not sure who you are. Right. It's like. Right. They're going, if you were consistent and you made those deposits, Jelani, those are going to reap amazing dividends when you're dealing with some difficulty with your kids.
Jelani: Mm. I think that's so true. Well, to put you in the hot seat a little bit, you know, we all fail as parents at certain stuff, you know, what do you, what do you wish you gave your kids more of?
Kevin: I always think about the opportunity to not be so successful because they maybe made this caricature and this false narrative that they needed to be that. And they also were dealing with my name. Mm oh, you're Kevin Carroll's son. Oh, you're Kevin Carroll's son. And maybe, you know, unbeknownst to them and just not even understanding why they were resenting that. No, I'm me.
Yeah. And so maybe not having enough of those conversations with them about, and I know I brought it up. You don't, I want you to be successful how you wanna be. You don't have to be me. You don't. And I can say that, but did I really sit down and, and emphasize and let them know you like clearly and stay on message a lot around that, because I know that was something, you know, all, all my kids have struggled with, right.
Is the, you know, look low- key, famous person, right. Celebrity, whatever kind of deal. Right. Because I'm out and about in the world using my voice and all that. So yes, there is a level of people knowing me. And then there's the affiliation for my family and oh, oh, I bet you're doing. It must have been amazing growing up with your dad.
Right. And I know in their head they're like, yeah, but you didn't have to live with him all the time. He's not that all the time. You had to be a dad sometimes with me. Yeah. And so I wish I really understood. And Ms. Lane would tell me, you know, children of people who have a level of celebrity or fame, it's not easy or, or, or successful parents, like whatever success, how you deem it, but they were successful.
It's not easy for their children because they then there's that burden of, well, you should be. Yeah. As, or more, how come you're not what's going on with you instead of allowing them to have their own journey, which I have, but I wish I had. The words or the way to make that a little more seamless and easier for them.
It took a little longer, I think, for them to figure that out and they have, and they've had their own journeys, but they've gone through stuff because of that too, I think.
Jelani: Yeah. Yeah. And what, uh, a remarkable unintended consequence of you finding your voice and, and health as a person and, and stable, like all those good things you were given by your grandparents, by Ms. Lane, um, gave you the footing to be successful in life. And as, as a son of a very famous father who was a jazz musician, right? Yeah. You UN you know, I know what it meant to live in his shadow to be the memory son and, um, uh, you know, I think that's, uh, that's very self-aware of you to recognize and, and is wow. What a double edged sword, right?
Kevin: Yeah, because we want to show them what's possible, but we don't want it to be at their detriment. Imagine like, you know, think about, oh, you're Michael Jordan's son. You're LeBron James son, your Serena William's daughter. Well, you going to be, well, maybe I don't wanna be that, but everybody's already created a narrative for you and you don't get a chance to find your own.
And so then you feel like you have to be this caricature or you have to put on a mask if you will, literally, right. And figuratively, like to hide like all your other hopes and dreams, your own personal hopes and dreams. So yeah, that would be the thing that I wish I had maybe had the nuance and the language and the ability to express that more clearly to them.
I think over time we got there, but it, I know it wasn't easy. I know it wasn't easy.
Jelani: Yeah. Well, Kevin, this was really wonderful. Thanks for your honesty, creativity, vulnerability, uh, all of it, uh, really glad to have you on the show.
Kevin: Absolutely. And, and I love the fact that you're doing this. I. You know the idea that kids are ready, but parents need to be ready too.
And preparing parents to receive and be ready for these conversations, I think is a brilliant idea. So well done.
Jelani: Right on. All right, thanks.
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Jelani: Thanks again to Kevin Carroll for sharing his wisdom and thanks to you for listening. Maybe we’ll all find a little more time for play, especially when it comes to building connections with the kids in our lives.
You can follow Kevin. He’s @kckatalyst on Twitter and Instagram. That’s Katalyst with a “K”. And you can follow me @jelanimemory on the Twitters.
And I’d love to hear what you think of the show. Big questions you might have, and guests you’d like to hear from.
Just email us at listen@akidsco.com.
Better Grownups is hosted by me, Jelani Memory. Matthew Winner was the producer on this episode, with additional production support from Chad Michael Snavely and the team at Sound On Studios.
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